Tris and ngons and poles, oh my!

[wasamonkey]

accually I have spoken with bay about no poles method of modeling
he uses this during the volume and form stages
when he goes to do details he goes for all quads
I dont know if this helps to cut down on poles or not
but this is his method of working
I prefer to focus on other things than worry about wether I have poles or not
I do try to keep poles under 6 edges on one point
and remember when the object is smoothed poles will form on ngons and tris

only a torus is going to have no poles all quads
and quads are more predictable

[fig]

is there an exact rule as to when a pole is formed? because it seems like even using all quads you can get poles, correct?

chris

[BazC]

Fig, a pole is a vertex (point) with more or less than 4 edges attached, so yes, you can easily produce them if you model using all quads.
They seem to cause smoothing problems, but I'm talking from very limited experience and problems with my models probably comes as much from inept modelling as the presence of poles! LOL.

They break edge loops too, as I understand it, a true edge loop consists of a loop of edges linking verts which connect EXACTLY four edges.

They can be avoided, for the most part, but only by adding extra geometry.

It's a difficult balancing act, a five sided poly (n-gon) will smooth to produce 5 four sided polys, which is good! BUT it will also produce a pole in the middle, which is BAD.

The ideal situation is a model consisting of four sided polys with no poles. When smoothed the poly flow will stay exactly the same and will still be free of tris, n-gons and poles. Unfortunately, as Wasamonkey explained, this is impossible! (unless your modelling a box or torus :o)

Baz

[Jide]

Actually, a box is all poles.

I've understood that poles and such are more of a problem when animating so I try not to be anal about them when modelling for stills, though I can't control myself from time to time :)

[BazC]

Quite right Jide, I just realised that and came back to edit my post but you beat me to it! lol

Baz

[wasamonkey]

im about to start writing a document on poles quads smoothing and what really matters
alot of what we perceive as good topology is really bad topology

loganarts is currently working on modeling correct topology
and my documents should go nicely with it and will be talking to him about a possible group thing once both of us has completed out own tasks

I will try and cover everything about how poles can be good and bad and how quads are not always the best option and how to put them to best use and where to avoid using certain types

I do not know where I will post this or if I will just host it on my site
but will update all the forums when Im am ready to release the first section

[BazC]

That sounds fantastic Wasamonkey! I'll look forward to hearing more.

Baz

[Shannon]

In my opinion, if you have a vert with more than 5 edges, you need to do some more work. However, many would disagree.
Some poles, and n-gons are just fine, but only with respect to your placement strategy. Put any of the aforementioned in the wrong spot, you're gonna pinch.

Here's work by John Feather. Worked with Bay on Gollum.
Youll notice poles and n-gons.
http://www.serpentsheart.com/Images/bonobo_sneer.jpg

[fig]

thanks for the info baz :thumbsup:

chris

[BazC]

Shannon, so where in your experience can you safely place them?
They seem to cause problems on smooth featureless curved surfaces and I've read that they can cause pinching during animation (I've never done any) so, you have to find nooks and crannies that won't move much during animation?

The Bonobo picture is interesting, shame it's not a little lower poly, it's difficult to see what's going on. I can certainly find plenty of poles but this untrained eye could'nt spot much else apart from the odd tri here and there. Any comments on his placement strategy?

Fig, you're welcome!

I'm sure this subject has been flogged to death elsewhere but I find this fascinating!

Baz

[puzzledpaul]

Couple of old threads, just in case people haven’t seen them

http://www.izware.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000304.html

http://www.izware.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000313.html

[marioucci]

HMMMMMMM..............

My 0,02:

I did most of my modeling work so far (1 year and a half) using lightwave. That app allows u to work with quads only(and some tris) and u work in it as dealing with patches. I used to work with tab on most of the time not caring much about how the low mesh would look like. and my meshes was 100% quads. Also my meshes were loaded of poles all around. and it never bothered me or got me in trouble. the patchy way lw works also gives you some "bad" habits... the usual edge flows we are used to see in bays and martin´s works are not a rule in lightwave. the meshes topology ull see in lightwave are very peculiar. look at miles estes meshes or tarons for example. so 100% quads+zillion poles+peculiar topology=GOOD!!!
I can use as example of good modeling using lightwave Taron and Kursad and Can and Amaan.

Now ive moved to Wings and i have plenty of tools that allows me to have even 500 sided polys and maybe no poles at all!!!:eek: It also gives you some "bad" habits:). The hability to go building up edge loops just as seen on martins and bays works can result in a very dirty mesh that ull have to clean up later on. to me coming from lightwave it was just like getting out of my moms house to my own and now i can eat a candy and throw the package on the floor lol.
It has its own metodology and it must be followed too....
To have a good mesh to use as reference u gonna have to look in those wings mirai artists cos lightwave meshes are really different.
good examples of great work done in that approach are bay raitt, feather, martin, zytrox etc..

What i am starting to think right now is that i can have a mostly quads mesh in here but i dont need to, for example, in a loop coming from the nose to the fore head, to create a diamond to terminate that detail area..... i can simply leave it there ending up in a 5 sided poly with no guilt at all. i believe now that have an 80% quads mesh is great... some poles on the way and some tris and nsided too..... but if u get stretched textures or a pinch somewhere.... go fix it right away and nevermind what i said lol
the important thing is to have fun all the way but with safety
:cool: make sex!!! but use the condom:bounce:

cheers mates

loggie

[Laa-Yosh]

Some more thoughts on the topic:

- There hasn't really been any new work from Bay or John Feather in the past 2 years now that was abailable for viewing. Their methods and preferences might have changed in this time. Maybe we'll get a Gollum wireframe on the extended DVD of Two Towers though ;)

- Lightwave is a very different beast from the other apps. Using PRMan for rendering is also a different thing. Look at the wires of Francisco Cortana for another example of "somewhat messy" topology ;) Some things will be tolerated more in different pipelines. So it's a lot about knowing your tools well and finding out what you can and can not do.

- Another important factor - besides Ngons and poles - is not to have to sudden changes in detail; don't place large polys and small thin polys near each other. Anyway, in the end it's all about the result - if it works than it does not matter how you got it done...

[BazC]

Interesting comments, thanks!

Loggie, would you say that Lightwave and Wings don't work particularly well together because of the differences you mention? I know you've switched to Wings and Messiah. I'm interested because I want to get a high app at some point and was thinking of Lightwave but I'm hooked on Wings now so they'd have to work well together. I know lots of other people use both, Cerreto for one!

Any chance of some links to the modellers you mention? I don't know Taron, Kursad, Can, Amaan, Martin or Zytrox. I did manage to find Zytrox's website but couldn't find any meshes there.

Thanks for your comments Laa-Yosh, I sometimes put big polys next to small ones, it didn't occur to me that it could cause problems, I'll watch out for it in future.

It seems that there is no difinitive answer to this problem and you just have to figure out what works for you and your app? Pity really! Not easy for a relative beginner like me, I often have pinching in my meshes and don't really know why! Lot's of useful advice here though, thanks everyone!

Baz

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